We've been considering the matter of divine hiddenness in class. In particular, we have been considering Schellenberg's arguments from divine hiddenness to atheism.
There's a fairly large literature on the matter of divine hiddenness. But here's one theistic response to the issue. Christian philosopher Michael Murray offers a free will response to divine hiddenness. In short, he argues that God's existence must remain epistemically ambiguous in order for his creatures to remain significantly free with respect to entering into a relationship with God.
Here's Murray:
"My claim is that the hiddenness of God is required in order for free beings to be able to exercise their freedom in a morally significant manner given the strength of the threat [of eternal hell given disobedience to the divine will] implied by knowledge of the threat implicit in the traditional Christian story. If God revealed his existence in a more perspicuous fashion we would be in a situation very much like the one in the standard robbery case, i.e., strong threat strength and strong threat imminence such that the level of wantonness [i.e., a characteristic of the individual threatened to disregard personal well-being in the face of threats to his freedom] of most, if not all, individuals would not significantly diminish their feeling compelled to act in accordance with the demand of the threatener. However, if God desires that there be individuals with free will who can use it in morally significant ways, then He must decrease the threat imminence of eternal and temporal punishment and He, in fact, does so by making the existence of the threat epistemically ambiguous. It is this epistemic ambiguity that we call the problem of the hiddenness of God."
Consider the merits of Murray's response. (You may have to stew over it a while to understand it.) Is Murray on to something here? Is he right about this? Would Schellenberg have a plausible reply to Murray?
C.S. Lewis seems to offer the same sort of reply in his The Screwtape Letters. Here's how Lewis puts the point (from the mouth of a demon mentoring a subordinate demon).
"You must have often wondered why the enemy [God] does not make more use of his power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree he chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the irresistible and the indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of his scheme forbids him to use. Merely to over-ride a human will (as his felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For his ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or assimilate them, will not serve.... Sooner or later he withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs--to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish.... He cannot "tempt" to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away his hand.... Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
Perhaps Murray's (and Lewis') reply does not satisfy. There are other sorts of replies. The following list of responses come from Christian philosophers Daniel Howard-Snyder and Paul Moser (from the Introduction to their edited book Divine Hiddenness: New Essays, Cambridge University Press (2002)).
God hides and thus permits reasonable nonbelief...
1. in order to enable people freely to love, trust, and obey Him; otherwise, we would be coerced in a manner incompatible with love. [This seems to be Murray's response.]
2.
in order to prevent a human response based on improper motives (such as
fear of punishment). [This seems to be a part of Murray's response,
too.]
3.
because, if He were not hidden, humans would relate to God and to their
knowledge of God in presumptuous ways and the possibility of developing
the inner attitudes essential to a proper relationship with Him would
be ipso facto ruled out.
4.
because this hiding prompts us to recognize the wretchedness of life on
our own, without God, and thereby stimulates us to search for him
contritely and humbly.
5.
because if He made His existence clear enough to prevent [reasonable]
nonbelief, then the sense of risk required for a passionate faith would
be objectionably reduced.
6.
because if He made His existence clear enough to prevent [reasonable]
nonbelief, temptation to doubt His existence would not be possible,
religious diversity would be objectionably reduced, and believers would
not have as much opportunity to assist others in starting personal
relationships with God.
7. and
there's a good reason why God hides, but we don't know what that reason
is, and we have no grounds for thinking that we would know what that
reason is (since we are finite, cognitively limited people), so there's
no basis for an objection to God's existence here.
Maybe one (or the
conjunction of two or more) of these explanations succeeds in countering
Schellenberg's arguments. Which of these explanations would you
offer (if any)? Do you think one (or more) of them succeeds to counter
Schellenberg's arguments? If so, which one(s), and what premise (in each
argument--Analogy and Conceptual) is denied? If you have a different
explanation for divine hiddenness, what is it?

I feel like Murray's argument is quite good because if God did present himself to all the world then everyone would feel obligated to follow his guidance rather than the want to because you believe and have faith in him. The robbery analogy is also strong and gives you visualization as well. All these arguments are very strong and they all make sense to a believer, but to the atheists they still have no merit at all because they are choosing not to hear the arguments that theists provide. So these arguments are good but they still don't prove anything to the atheists and the question still remains of "Is God real, or not?".
ReplyDeleteNathan Schutz
While we have been discussing this topic of Divine Hiddenness there has been this reoccurring though that keeps entering my mind and the selection in this blog have stirred that very same thought within myself and so I am going to unpack it…. For what it’s worth this is coming for my pastoral perspective; God choosing to be hidden for me is a two way street, for God as the entity of the divine to be ‘hidden” seems like a good thing in my mind. I say this because I find that there are many people who choose to place God in a box and that He is to be contained there… That is not the reality of God and His glory;
ReplyDeleteMY FIRST POINT-
In the Bible there are many examples of people who fell as they encountered God’s presence. John fell down in the presence of Jesus’ glory (Rev. 1:17), as did the disciples (Mt. 17:6). The soldiers who arrested Jesus fell to the ground (Jn. 18:6). Saul fell on the road to Damascus when he encountered Jesus’ glory at his conversion (Acts 9:4-8).
Ezekiel fell down before the glory of the Lord (Ezek. 1:28; 3:23; 43:4; 44:4).
. Daniel fell, had no strength, and even passed out, going into a deep sleep (Dan. 8:7-10, 17-18; 10:8-9). He was overwhelmed by God’s presence, having no strength to get up (Dan. 10:9, 17). Daniel could hear and was aware of His condition and surroundings.
Large numbers may be “incapacitated” by the power of the Spirit as occurred at the dedication of Solomon’s temple when the people saw the “glory cloud” (2 Chr. 5:13-14).
The house of the Lord was filled with a cloud, so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house… (2 Chr. 5:13-14)
God’s glory was manifest in such power that the priests could not function or enter the temple because of God’s glory (2 Chr. 7:1-2). At times the presence of God is “heavy” and can be felt as weight. People fall under it or gradually bend over until they eventually fall. The Hebrew word for glory is kavod, which means the “weight or heaviness” of God.
The glory of the Lord filled the temple. 2 The priests could not enter the house…because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord’s house. (2 Chr. 7:1-2)
Is the purpose of the “hiddenness” so that we as we are to receive glimpses of Him we are drawn closer to Him though these experiences leaving us longing for more, and more of Him in our lives enticing to long for a deeper and greater relationship with Him one that we cannot just place in a box….
As one who is a Charismatic Christian I have experienced this power of the glory personally as wells when I have been praying for people, this gives me glimpses of His glory and I personally long for more, and more of Him in my life.
MY SECOND POINT-
The Gospel of John 14:8-11 - Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
As a Christian we are called to be the hands and the feet of Christ, therefor when others see us living, acting, and serving they see God though us. We are to live our lives reflecting Christ simply we may be the only Jesus that people may ever see.
The idea of Divine Hiddenness can be applied to how much we are willing to reflect God though out our living, loving, and serving. Can others see God though us? The answer is yes, it just depends how much of Him we are willing to display….
Mark... Very well stated. I agree and like how you answered this because a lot of people do try and put God in a box and get him out when it is convenient for them and then wonder where God is when something bad happens. God is not meant to be called upon just when we need something done for us or find it convenient for us. He is meant to be followed on a daily basis and praised, worshiped, and seeked everyday.
ReplyDeleteSome people will begin to say that God does not exist and keeps himself hidden because he is not perfectly loving. J.L. Schellenberg is a philosopher in religion and has given the following argument for atheist. If God exists, then God is perfectly loving. If God is perfectly loving, then God makes available a personal relationship with all nonresisters. If God makes available a personal relationship with all nonresisters, then God provides to all nonresisters the evidence sufficient for belief in the existence of God. But it’s not the case that God provides to all nonresisters the evidence sufficient for belief in the existence of God. Therefore, it’s not the case that God makes available a personal relationship with all nonresisters. Therefore, it’s not the case that God is perfectly loving. Therefore, it’s not the case that God exists. Schellenbergs argument seems to have a flawless approach to proving God does not exist, but I do not agree with step number four. God does not pick and choose certain people to ignore and not have a relationship with, simply the people that are not finding God are not looking for the right things. A lot of people look at God as a second option and want him to just show up whenever they feel is convenient for them, yet when God does do things for them they act as if it had nothing to do with him and completely blow him off. That creates a problem because then these people try to say that God does not exist. We have many reasons to believe God exists.
In response to Murray and C.S Lewis. They state very good points and I agree that God seems to stay hidden so that he can have a true loving relationship with us. The only thing that I want to add to there statements is that God is not completely hidden to people that seek him. Some people are just searching and "expecting" in the wrong ways. People have been trying to take God out of this culture for about 50 or more years now. Towns get sued for having a nativity seen because it is bringing God into the mix. People try to get rid of him in anyway they can, but then ask "where was God when that happened". Well God is in the people that put their faith in him and seek him every day. They are to spread the word and show Gods love to them. As Mark said. we are to be like Jesus to others and show his love and spread his word. So is God really hidden or are we just looking in the wrong areas and looking for a reason to not believe? I think many people are searching for him all wrong and need to start using their faith as God intended us to.
Elliott Westerbeck
I believe that Marruy has something going for his argument. I feel like God does not reveal himself to everyone to give people freedom. I also feel that many people only look for him in bad time like Mark said. I also feel that God does show signs to everyone but we are so busy living our own lives and living at a fast pace that we ignore the signs that he gives us. It maybe something little like a flower growing in a space you wouldn't think to see one growing or a beautiful sunset after a thunderstorm. I believe that if people took time to recognize the signs even the little signs they owe see he is not hidden. He does not always give big signs like he did the Moses.
ReplyDeleteAshley Davies
I personally believe that the divine hiddenness can only be partially justified by the free will defense. God could easily be opaque about the existence of hell while presenting himself in slightly more obvious ways. He's omnipotent and omniscient, he ought possess the power to manage. ( Why is there a hell to begin with, i never understood. isn't God supposed to be all loving and forgiving?) Assume that Hell does exist, Pope Francis had recently announced that all atheists are redeemed, which indicates that the threat of soul burning hell should no longer be a threat.
ReplyDelete5. because if He made His existence clear enough to prevent [reasonable] nonbelief, then the sense of risk required for a passionate faith would be objectionably reduced.
No, no, it's the opposite.
1.in order to enable people freely to love, trust, and obey Him; otherwise, we would be coerced in a manner incompatible with love. [This seems to be Murray's response.]
The free will defense is self-contradictory. According to Hume, Inwagen, Hobbes etc. "free will and determinism are perfectly compatible."
E. Yoshinaga
I think that Murray provides a good enough answer for those Christians searching for an easy reason as to why God never reveals himself. Schellenberg would have a field day arguing that if a child calls for his mother she should reply out of good characteristics of a loving mother. I agree with Schellenberg and I think Murray's reasoning has holes in it that can not be filled. C.S. Lewis at least says that God can not show himself because it would not be fair according to free will. He says that we the people could only be woo'd and not fully and truly believe because of our own free will but rather because we are so impressed. My question is, if God is so powerful and we should believe in Him anyway then why would it matter if we saw him or not? In my opinion it would make things way easier for Him! I know that I personally would be much more comfortable with worshiping someone I knew actually existed rather than a possibility that might be out there. I understand that free will can not be messed with but what could it possibly hurt for God to show himself or let himself be heard a few times in a persons life?
ReplyDeleteSuppose we are children in the exact situation as the analogy that Schellenberg sets up. Perhaps we are lost in the forest without it's parent. Perhaps we are panicking because of this, and even say we have suffered a blow causing amnesia. Suppose that the world we see around us is terrifying and full of dangers.
ReplyDeleteNow, suppose that we (being children) are a little bit mislead by what we are seeing. Perhaps it isn't a jungle at all, but a park or a grocery store, or a mechanic's garage. How is a small child to know much of a difference? (depending on the child's previous experiences of course)
This isn't to say that our situation isn't as bad as we say it is (but who's to say it is?) but more to say that if we are children, why do we assume that we know everything that is going on? Why do we assume that because we can't fully understand God that He must not exist? If God were who He says He is, then fully understanding Him would go above the very definition of God.
This could be comparable to a child shaking his fist at a parent who won't buy him a toy. The child sees this as everything, but the parent knows not only knows better, but knows more.
I believe God reveals himself to us and we just take whatever it is for granted I.e. A promotion, random acts of kindness, miracles, etc. gid answers prayer, just not always in the way that we want Him to, so when he does and it's not the right answer we wanted, we quickly shrug Him off as non existent or not caring. The truth is God know what is best for us even before we were born.
ReplyDelete